I first want to say that I do not desire to be put on one of the watchdog sites. I do not enjoy it, want it, and definitely didn't have it listed as one of the things I wanted to do before I die.
The comment that I made last night, was not intended to offend or alienate. I was not wanting to start a conversation, but I guess we have one now. This is a conversation that has needed to be had in a while. I am not against the traditional church, I am not against people who do things different, nor do I think that we have a secret word from God and they way our gathering choses to do things is the only way, or even the best. I am ready for us, as children of God to stand together, allow some of our differences to be just that, differences, and move towards connecting every man, woman, and child to living on mission with God.
The tone of my post was not intended to be mean spirited, but since it was taken that way, I need to work on my communication skills. I think we need to add to the conversation and not just attack, my post was not meant to be an attack at you, or even your message, but honestly at the heart of your communication which leads you to be Pope, and us to be just readers of your interpretation and hermeneutic and not brothers trying to figure this thing out together. Most people in other countries have given up hope for the North American church. If we don't do something soon, we will be living in a Post-Christian culture. I think that we are ushering it in because we can't figure out how to live in harmony amongst ourselves. I do think we can create more Christ Followers in our country. I think we can do something to connect the disconnected. I am living with the reality that whatever God choses to do with His church, that He will do with all His people. Let's pray for God to show us how to do it together.
I do have those who I do life with in the daily that attempt to show me the ways that I have not been Christlike in my words or actions, and that is not just in the threshold of the "real world" but also in the "cyber-world." I pray for Godly men and women to continue to do that.
I pray we can partner for every man, woman, and child.
Saturday, August 18, 2007
Oh the madness...
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
29 comments:
"Most people in other countries have given up hope for the North American church. If we don't do something soon, we will be living in a Post-Christian culture."
Adam,
I may be a little late on the band-wagon, but I was never one for band-wagons. I read all the posts and as qouted above I must disagree with you on this point and leave others alone. This country is and has been a "post-christian" culture for longer that we've been alive. The slip occured before we saw the light of day. We are children and by-products of that slip. Only as Jesus cleanses us from our sins, can we truly begin to see the mire for what it truly is. God has always had the same message to His people, " be ye holy, for I am holy." Just as there is nothing in this "created" universe like Him because he is holy, meaning seperate, we too are to be like Him in the world we live in. I know the arguments and have looked at them, that we must be "relevent' to today's culture in order to make it understandable to the "un-churched". I've read the so-called experts and find the books to be nothing more than pop-culture pyscho-babble and corporate marketing tactics to ensure the profitable exploitation of the "product" to the masses. Jesus is not a "product" that needs to be pandered to the masses. Without Him they have no life and all is vain for they can do nothing. As a christian, I am tired of the example and the excuses given in the name of Christ to justify the things done in human power. In effect, much of the American christian (or falsely so called) church has done nothing more than to go down to Egypt for help. Meaning that people are trusting in others for growth, how to save souls and other such issues, looking to church-growth experts, (How does one even begin to be expert in spiritual matters?), and this plan or this method to gaurantee that people are at the altar every Sunday. Not many, truly trust in the Lord for these things anymore in this country, it's usually gotta be some program or campaign or whatever, I not big on trying to be "relevent". That argument assumes the Bible is out-of-date and that we have to be smarter and wiser than the Author in an attempt to woo people to Christ. I want to trust in God and that he will send His word out through his chosen ministers and children and that His word will not return empty, it will accomplish the thing He sent it out for. My hope is that all who name the name of Christ, will depart from sin, iniquity and all other forms of disobedience and truly return to trusting in God for the things that truly belong to God!
I always ask myself, "am I trusting in man and his devices or am I relying on God?" Those are my thoughts and I am nothing but a sinner of sinners saved by Jesus Christ who needs mercy and grace from God. I believe this American church needs reformed and not to be "relevent" to today's culture.
The post is called "Dumb, Dumb People" - yet - "my post was not meant to be an attack at you, or even your message, but honestly at the heart of your communication which leads you to be Pope, and us to be just readers of your interpretation and hermeneutic and not brothers trying to figure this thing out together."
And then - "The tone of my post was not intended to be mean spirited, but since it was taken that way, I need to work on my communication skills."
I think there'd be agreement on the last point anyway.
Trinity,
Thanks for your time and your response.
By "Post-Christian culture" I was referring to a culture where the majority of the people are not only disconnected or uninterested in Christian values, but are hostile towards them. We are moving to place where it is becoming more prevalent, but still not a majority, at least not to my estimate.
I am not sure that I at all was referring to "relevance" as you seemed to be most interested in talking about.
For our gathering specifically we do not attempt to create some new relevant message. We completely believe that the word of God is relevant. We call people to it and call people to live their lives by it. We think that the ways of communicating that message are what need to be more relevant. God does not need me to make Himself more relevant, but he does call me as one of his messengers to use the most effective methods possible.
Ken,
Why is it that at both of your sites, that you do not allow comments, unlike my blog?
Trinity,
let us just keep in mind what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings."
you do seem to be fairly educated of the "other side", which is more than others can say, and that it great. So you've probally have heard this passage being used before. But does this not seem to be Paul telling us to make sure we are to be culturally relevant in our own contexts? Does this not seem him to be instructed us to, in a way, cater to those who we are trying, for the sake of the Gospel, to reach?
Thank you Ken for your humility in this matter.
"but he does call me as one of his messengers to use the most effective methods possible."
I find that the "methods" themselves are the very things that may be considered as, "going down to Egypt for help". I have read some of the church growth/planting/health books and find myself in disagreement with the teachings. Where are the days that pastors would bleed their hearts and preach as a dying man to dying people? Church has to be quick, convenient and quaint with the "un-churched" in mind. All activities are done with them in mind and as such, not to be offensive, in hopes that they come next Sunday. The church mostly in this country is being catered to the ungodly. I'm glad that you believe that the Word is relevent and that you call people to live by it. I just wish that people had the minds, love for God and His word as those that have gone on before us, specifically those of the 18th through early 20th centuries. They were unmatched and remain such today. Just look at the materials and sermons from then and compare them to now and I believe you would see it too. Time is short, Thank you for yours!
In Christ
thank you trinity. yes i agree that many pastors today do not do the Word justice. But i do believe that you will find that there do exist, both in the emerging church and those outside it, those who preach "as a dying man to a dying people." I believe, if you listen to his podcast, adam is among those who do this. again, thank you for your sincerity and the respectfulness in which you have handled yourself in this matter.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23
I am aware of the reasoning that is used with this passage of scripture. I admit that these do seem allude to such an idea, however I believe that the greater context should be taken into consideration. Paul is answering questions/arguments against himself and his ministry (interesting correlation). He, himself, as we see from scripture preached to all those mentioned in those passages. The difference between him and us is that he didn't conform to the culture, which would be against Christ and his own conscience, but he used the culture "against" (if that may be an appropriate word to use)his listeners, speaking of the Jews and Gentile cultures. He rested on Christ's law and made himself a slave, for he said, "woe unto me if I don't preach the Gospel of Christ". That was his whole mission, preaching to different people groups in different regions, making him a missionary. We however, aren't missionaries to different cultures, we have only one and that is the American post-modern culture. Understanding that you may deal with different ethnic groups at your church, you are still dealing with people embedded with the American way. Paul did also constrain us not to be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, thus not making us subject to its ways and methods but unto God and His purposes. I may be off the scope of the whole chapter, I admit I am only a student, however too much is done in the name of Christ and sadly much may not be going to the glory of God, Thank you for your responses, may God use you to bring glory to Himself in whatever way He sees fit.
I think this sums up what I was trying to get across in my comments:
"Many Christians have what we might call a "cultural holiness". They adapt to the character and behavior pattern of Christians around them. As the Christian culture around them is more or less holy, so these Christians are more or less holy. But God has not called us to be like those around us. He has called us to be like himself. Holiness is nothing less than conformity to the character of God."
Jerry Bridges
Thanks for your time and responses.
"The comment that I made last night, was not intended to offend or alienate."
Always easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission, isn't it?
Look, this kind of debate has gone on since the founding of the church. Paul called names, named false teachers, some of the greatest church fathers used some pretty harsh rhetoric a lot of the time. But what we should be looking at is whether or not what someone says is true, not disregarding the message because we don't like the 'tone.' However, if you're complaining about the 'tone' and then duplicate it in your message, that would be good grounds to disregard it. I think go ahead, use whatever tone you believe is appropriate and effective. And I will too. "I am not against people who do things different, " as you said.
Adam Mayfield:
It is encouraging to read your new post.
Regarding "Popes"; There seems to be a lot of folks who are out to "influence" Christians, and basicaly tell us what to do. I've seen this even on a news "crawl"...that "Carl Rove will influence Evangelicals for the Republican party".
None of us needs to buckle under any such pressure, and the time to let them know it, is now. Through Christian Liberty, we can all have our own convictions on doctrine. And we can all "agree to disagree", and be polite and courteous with each other. This should help us exchange ideas.
terriergal,
wow...great points. that sums up what the main issue is here. thanks for that bit of gold!
Did you ever walk through a spider web and it gets all over you, and no matter how much you try it seems to stick to you? I'm not sure the dumb, dumb title was well thought out, but now you have entered the twilight zone.
You might have blended in before, but now you are on the stage. Unless you relish being under the microscope, I would retreat into preaching about Jesus until the storm passes over!
haha. finally some comic relief! If only everybody did as you suggest.
"I'm not sure the dumb, dumb title was well thought out,..."
Words of one in hypocrisy. Just let certain others have used that title and the holier than thous with their new evangelical friends would raise up their double standard.
Right, comic relief all right...
Ken,
Maybe I am the only one, but I didn't understand your last comment. Any chance you can re-phase it?
I would still like to know why comments aren't allowed on your blogs?
See, Adam. The spider webs again. By the way, Ken, I was just recently labeled a "hypocrite at the highest order" so please do not demote me. I am no ordinary hypocrite, I am one of the highest order!
And as I've observed, that may well be the only thing I'll ever be the highest order in.
no adam, your not the only one. ken man, i couldn't interpret that last one. I think it was a slam on my comment, but I'm not quite sure. If you dont mind, could you clarify please.
Shawn - Ken was referring to me. We go back aways so he was calling me a hypocrite. Stand clear, Shawn, you do not want to get in Ken's crosshairs. He is way out of your league.
henry,
thanks for the heads up, and im not to sure if you were being sarcastic, but I dont have anything to fear from him. If he comes at me for some reason, then if his point is valid, I'll reply, if not then I'll ignore him and move on. Nothing to be afraid of. He's got the Word, and so do I. In the end, that's all anyone, who wants to have a legitimate voice, has. Right?
Adam,
And I still don't understand this: The post is called "Dumb, Dumb People" - yet - "my post was not meant to be an attack at you, or even your message, but honestly at the heart of your communication which leads you to be Pope, and us to be just readers of your interpretation and hermeneutic and not brothers trying to figure this thing out together."
And how - "The tone of my post [which calls people 'dumb'] was not intended to be mean spirited."
Ken,
I have been trying to figure out a way to articulate this effectively.....not sure if it will happen, but let's give it a go.
I found both of the posts that I had mentioned in my original post, and completely disagreed with the conclusion that was drawn in them. I scrolled immediately to the bottom of the post to comment, in an attempt to add to the conversation, only to find that commenting was not a possibility. I became frustrated and immediately blogged about it. It was definitely not the best decision.
The title that I put on that particular post was done at the end and it just sorta got "lumped" with the rest of the post.
I truly mean everything that the above post says, and because of that, I do I apologize for calling you and Paul Walker dumb in the posts before. You didn't deserve that, and I do not know you at all, so I have no basis, but one post to make my judgement. If I truly want to unite with you for every man, woman, and child the worst way that I can do that is to start off by calling you names while not knowing you. For that I am sorry. The reason I am such and advocate for ALL BLOGGERS to leave comments on is so they can be called on the carpet for doing "dumb things."
I believe with all of my heart, that if you and I lived in the same city, that we could meet over coffee, share out hearts and come to find out that there are many things that we agree upon, sure we would have some disagreements as well, but I think we could both leave that meeting respecting each other and praying for each other. I pray that you will consider allowing commenting. There is a possibility that by having a conversation that you will be able to articulate with some people on a deeper level, what you are communicating, and many times people who at first didn't understand what you were saying as truth, could be brought into the light.
We are in this together.
Oh Adam - to be young and niave, I envy you. Just do a little perusing of Ken's two blogs and you may well rethink the "sit down for coffee" scenario. I do not fully understand your doctrinal positions, but I think I glean some significant differences with me and certainly Ken.
Ken is correct about the dumb thing being mean spirited, but in full disclosure he is the crown prince of mean spirited. With your apology duly noted, I would sit back for awhile and absorb some of the pertinent writings that have been ongoing for some time. You will get a quick education about the nature of some of the debate.
Adam,
Stumbled onto your site down some rabbit hole. Really appreciate your thoughts.
I confirm with Henry's (Rick) assesment when it comes to Ken being mean spirited. He'll leave you alone in a little when someone posts about his mean-spiritedness. Which Ingrid (Christian Research? Network) and Ken take to be spiritual fruit. Recant immediately your invite for coffee. You don't want to tread there. And for my full disclosure Ken, once again I say to you I have done extensive research on your "ministry" and would never dream to attack you the way you attack others. Even when I see glaring disparities between a true ministry and yours.
Adam,
In the comments above from Rick (Henry) Frueh and Chris of the "rabbit hole" you have a large part of my answer as to why I do not have a comments section at Apprising or CRN.
This piece below also fills in the rest of the situation for those who want to know more:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/
2007/01/another_perspec_1.html
And Adam to you personally, I would like you to know that I would indeed accept your offer to talk over a cup of coffee. This is not personal between you and me.
Ken - would you like to have a cup of coffee with me? I am ready although stranded in Florida, bring you bathing suit, I have pool. (worldly I know).
Ken,
I live in Michigan...We have a lot of lakes so you can also come here for a swim. As I've mentioned before I don't drink caffeinated beverages so I won't have coffee with you.
Don't let him fool you Adam. Ken doesn't allow comments on his blog because he just wants to launch self-righteous, ad hominem, attacks on everything that differs from his brand of Christianity. With no way for dialogue.
If your like the rest of us; you will allow comments on your blog and then moderate all those from Ken.
Post a Comment